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[Music]

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hello and welcome to episode number 36

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of the point of convergence podcast

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as always

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i am your host exo academian

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in the 1980s a book that seemingly came

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out of nowhere a book that the author

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purportedly had a very difficult time

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actually finding a publisher for

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took the world by storm the book with

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the provocative title of communion

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featured the image of a face of a very

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peculiar creature

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one with an oval head large

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almond-shaped eyes and a decidedly

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pointed chin

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the book was authored by whitley

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strieber a well-known fiction writer of

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the time

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a writer who had numerous well-received

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and best-selling titles under his belt

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by the time communion was published

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the image on the cover of communion of

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course went on to become the

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quintessential face of the alien all

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over the world

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partly because shockingly that face bore

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strange uncanny and too many

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disconcerting familiarity for people all

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while many might at first have assumed

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that communion was a one-off a book

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describing one man's one-time harrowing

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tale of an encounter was supposedly

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alien or at least decidedly non-human

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intelligent entities

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nothing could be further from the truth

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in reality stripper continued to have

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ongoing encounters with these seemingly

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otherworldly entities

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encounters that were filled to the brim

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with elements of what has come to be

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referred to as high strangeness

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furthermore as strieber sought to

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grapple with the nature and meaning of

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these encounters he began to realize

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there was a peculiar familiarity to

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these visitors as he came to call them

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that stretched well back into his

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childhood

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even though he had repressed much of

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those memories in his early adult life

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now it was all coming flooding back

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making the entire matter all the more

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streeper followed communion with a

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second book titled transformation that

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in my opinion is even more enthralling

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than its predecessor

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because it involves a degree of

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perspective and clarity that was simply

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unavailable to the author at the time he

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penned the first book

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in transformation strieber not only

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describes the bizarre and sometimes

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terrifying nature of the encounters he

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had and continued to have

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but he begins to offer a kind of

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response at first somewhat feeble but

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growing in intensity and boldness as the

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months rolled on and the events

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continued happening

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it is not a stress to describe the kind

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of interaction that strieber began to

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have with the visitors as relationship

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though of a kind that continued to feel

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decidedly one-sided for some time to

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come

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and while the sheer ontological shock

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and discombobulation involved with these

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encounters continued to elicit a kind of

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primal terror in strieber

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he began slowly but surely to carve out

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a kind of mutuality in the experience

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eventually even discerning that these

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visitors weren't coming to hurt him but

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who were these visitors what was their

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intention why had they chosen him

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and what did this mean not just for his

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future but for the future of the human

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species

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these are all questions that strieber

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wrestled with in his engaging and

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thought provoking book transformation

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and we'll endeavor to do the same in

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this the 36th episode of the point of

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[Music]

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now when it comes to strieber's books

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and especially his first three books

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that dealt with the ufo phenomenon

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namely communion transformation the book

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we'll discuss today as well as the third

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book in this series breakthrough i have

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a decided fondness for those three books

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and that's because these are the books

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that first got me interested in this

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topic way back in the late 1990s

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it was interesting because at the time i

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was enthralled by his tale but also

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being much younger and much less

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sophisticated had a hard time making

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sense of the

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non-nuts and bolts kind of narrative and

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how much of it was ethereal in nature

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now clearly whitley strieber is a very

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central figure when it comes to the ufo

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phenomenon he is probably the most

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famous abductee ever

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and his books the initial three books

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did a lot to establish that

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of course strieber has also paid quite a

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price for coming out as an experiencer

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as a contactee

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abductee

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initially these books were bestsellers

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but over time people began to question

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his sanity or even worse questioned

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whether or not he was being honest and

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sincere or if he was just using his

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imagination to paint the tapestry of

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these books

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clearly he was being honest and he has

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stuck to his story all through history

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since then

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and i would like to return to streeper's

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accounts numerous times he's written

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many books to do with the ufo phenomenon

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and specifically his experiences with it

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and we'll dive into those different

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books and see how his perspective grows

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and evolves over time

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but today we're going to discuss the

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second book of the original trilogy the

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book transformation and as i said in at

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the outset

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already we see that strieber is evolving

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now some people actually criticize

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strieber's work because it is so

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colorful and so articulate that makes

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people draw the conclusion especially

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people of a more nuts and bolts variety

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that he's embellishing if not outright

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making this up

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but clearly he is recounting his

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experiences to the best of his ability

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what i appreciate and i would suggest we

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should all appreciate is that because he

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is an author and he is articulate that

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he can put pen to paper and describe

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these experiences in a very realistic

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way even though the experiences are so

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bewildering that is just the nature of

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these kinds of encounters and we should

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be thankful that we have someone as

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the other thing i would point out in

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defense of strewber's credibility is

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much of what he wrote back in the 1980s

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was new it was novel people hadn't heard

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of this

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and they assumed again some of his

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critics assumed that he was making it up

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or embellishing it

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but what speaks to his credibility is

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that since then people all around the

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world have recounted very similar

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incidents very similar encounters

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strikingly so

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so clearly that points to a picture of

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this happening on a worldwide basis to

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many many people in fact we'll talk

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about just how many people later on

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but again the fact that strieber is

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actually not unusual is what's

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interesting here

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he's one of many many people who've had

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these encounters

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all through his lifetime indeed going

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okay and with that preamble done let's

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now jump into the book transformation

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this is what stripper has to say about

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what's been happening to him

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quote

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i have been deep into the dark and found

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extraordinary things there

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the visitors did not go away when i

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finished communion

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on the contrary they came rushing into

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my life and would not stop

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my experience has come to include too

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many witnesses for me to consider that

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it is internal to my mind

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i believe that the vivid and startling

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nature of a number of the witnesses

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experiences and the credibility of the

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witnesses all but proves my contention

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that the visitors are a genuine unknown

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and not an outcome of hallucination or

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mental illness

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even the most skeptical and vociferous

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of my critics has publicly admitted that

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i am not lying

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short of actual physical evidence i

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think that i have gone as far as

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possible to demonstrate the reality of

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now just a couple notes about what we

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just read

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number one the visitors didn't stop when

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he finished writing communion clearly

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they continued to come the visitations

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you might call them continued and they

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showed up in very discombobulating ways

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bizarre ways that i think will stretch

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your imagination stretch your ability to

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understand and that's just the nature of

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these experiences they're extremely

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bizarre

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now on top of that what's clear from

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what we just read is that strieber

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remember this is back in the 1980s at

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that time had to go out of his way to

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demonstrate his mental stability and to

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try and demonstrate that he was not

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embellishing or being fraudulent in

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putting this forward as a real story a

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true story that was actually happening

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to him and his family

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and we're reminded that all experiencers

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tend to have to go through this that in

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addition to being

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shocked and in some degree of

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horror over what's happening because

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again initially the ontological shock is

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front and center

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in addition to that which is already so

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much to deal with

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people often find that they're not

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believed people just assume in our

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culture especially in academia or in

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mainstream media

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that these kinds of things just can't

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happen that's finally beginning to

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change now somewhat that's loosened up a

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bit now but we're reminded that strieber

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was dealing with all of this in the

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pioneering times you might call it back

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in the late 1980s when all of this was

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now on plenty of previous episodes of

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this podcast i've discussed the

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ontological shock aspect that's the term

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that john mack originally used to

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describe what people go through

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another word to put it simply is terror

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these are terrifying encounters

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and what we'll find with strieber is

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that it's not because necessarily they

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are dangerous literally

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but rather that they are just so

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different the experience is so different

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and they look so terrifying to us with

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our kind of monkey brain that responds

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with fight or flight when something

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looks insectoid but whether it's three

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feet tall or seven feet tall that's

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going to scare you

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as much as i'm aware of this

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still today if i see a certain kind of

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spider beyond a certain size i do not

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have a good response this is very much

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ingrained in our evolutionary biology

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and that's why people have this initial

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ontological shock

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now that being the case strieber and his

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family

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because they were having these

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00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:41,120
encounters and they knew they weren't

284
00:11:44,870 --> 00:11:42,399
going to go away

285
00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:44,880
decided rather than cowering in fear

286
00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:46,560
they were going to try and meet these

287
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:48,720
experiences head on

288
00:11:59,430 --> 00:11:57,030
my wife and i had seriously considered

289
00:12:01,509 --> 00:11:59,440
abandoning the cabin but the more we

290
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:01,519
became convinced that the experience

291
00:12:07,350 --> 00:12:04,000
might possibly be real the more we

292
00:12:09,509 --> 00:12:07,360
became determined not to run from it

293
00:12:11,829 --> 00:12:09,519
what if they were aliens if they were

294
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:11,839
real we could not in conscience turn

295
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:13,200
away from them

296
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:15,600
they were terrifying but we were very

297
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:22,629
now again what we hear in what i just

298
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:25,440
read is that strieber and his wife are

299
00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:28,079
still wrestling with the nature of these

300
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:31,360
experiences how quote unquote real are

301
00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:32,320
they

302
00:12:36,629 --> 00:12:34,560
again this is back in the 1980s before

303
00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:36,639
there was a really well-established

304
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:37,760
literature

305
00:12:42,870 --> 00:12:40,160
behind this phenomenon so they were

306
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:42,880
wrestling in the dark to some degree

307
00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:44,639
not having a lot of people to compare

308
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:45,920
notes with

309
00:12:50,230 --> 00:12:48,160
imagine how much more discombobulating

310
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:50,240
that must have been to have to question

311
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:53,040
your own sanity on a daily basis and

312
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:54,959
that was the reality for them for some

313
00:12:58,470 --> 00:12:56,320
period of time

314
00:13:00,870 --> 00:12:58,480
especially for whitley who is having the

315
00:13:02,389 --> 00:13:00,880
majority of the experiences

316
00:13:04,470 --> 00:13:02,399
again just think of that whenever you

317
00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:04,480
think about what experiencers tend to go

318
00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:07,200
through

319
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:10,000
now i'm sure we would all applaud their

320
00:13:15,670 --> 00:13:12,959
courage whitley and his wife anne in

321
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:15,680
deciding to meet this head-on to not run

322
00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:17,120
from it

323
00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:18,959
of course it's one thing when you and

324
00:13:24,629 --> 00:13:21,920
your adult spouse are going through this

325
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:24,639
what becomes very troubling to both of

326
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:27,279
them is that it becomes clear over time

327
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:29,760
that their son andrew is also

328
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:32,240
experiencing the phenomenon

329
00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:34,880
indeed it appears that he himself is

330
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:37,040
being abducted as well

331
00:13:41,189 --> 00:13:38,560
and of course we're very familiar with

332
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:41,199
this on this podcast there is a long

333
00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:43,839
history of multi-generational

334
00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:46,560
contact experiences and this indeed

335
00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:49,120
happened with the streeters as well

336
00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:50,639
and now i'd like to quote from a section

337
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:53,120
of the book where strieber wakes up to

338
00:14:03,189 --> 00:14:00,470
and just to paint a really clear picture

339
00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:03,199
here this is the middle of the night at

340
00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:06,000
the cabin in new york state so their

341
00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:08,160
sons certainly should be in his bed fast

342
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:09,600
asleep

343
00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:11,760
quoting from the book quote

344
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:14,000
i seized on a last faint hope and

345
00:14:18,790 --> 00:14:16,800
decided to look outside the previous

346
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:18,800
summer we bought andrew a tent from

347
00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:21,440
sears it was set up in the woods not far

348
00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:23,760
from the house maybe he had gone out

349
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:24,560
there

350
00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:26,399
but leaving the house in the dark and

351
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:28,560
going through the woods to the tent was

352
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:30,480
literally the last thing i could imagine

353
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:31,920
him doing

354
00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:33,760
even though he'd been told little about

355
00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:36,480
the visitors he'd had his own possible

356
00:14:41,430 --> 00:14:39,360
encounters and he was very nervous after

357
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:41,440
dark the poor kid

358
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:44,160
i ran out the door so great was my hope

359
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:46,320
of finding him i hadn't grabbed a

360
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:48,800
flashlight and it was very dark i went

361
00:14:52,870 --> 00:14:51,040
to the end of the porch thinking to walk

362
00:14:56,629 --> 00:14:52,880
near the road where the trees were

363
00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:58,710
that way i could see and i'd get to the

364
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:00,800
tent without risking a fall

365
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,800
i jumped down off the end of the porch

366
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:04,800
and started toward the road

367
00:15:09,030 --> 00:15:06,320
above me there was quite a broad

368
00:15:10,949 --> 00:15:09,040
expansive sky and as i heard along i

369
00:15:13,189 --> 00:15:10,959
noticed something moving there

370
00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:13,199
i stopped and looked up confused by the

371
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:15,040
suggestion of motion where there

372
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:16,480
shouldn't be any

373
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:19,360
what i saw was absolutely stunning a

374
00:15:23,829 --> 00:15:21,360
cold shock went through my body and my

375
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:23,839
heart started running in my chest

376
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:25,680
in that instant i was swept from the

377
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:27,760
real world and back into the fearsome

378
00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:30,800
strangeness that had been assaulting us

379
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:33,199
what i saw in the sky apparently no more

380
00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:35,360
than a few hundred feet above treetop

381
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:40,240
level was a gigantic blackness

382
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:42,000
it covered easily a third of the

383
00:15:47,749 --> 00:15:44,800
firmament blotting out the stars it was

384
00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:47,759
simply immense a featureless void it

385
00:15:52,389 --> 00:15:50,160
showed no lights it didn't glow it was a

386
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:52,399
black place in the sky

387
00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:54,639
it could as easily have been a hole in

388
00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:57,120
the real as a disk hanging silently in

389
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:58,399
the air

390
00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:00,320
the movement i had detected was the

391
00:16:05,269 --> 00:16:03,120
prick of stars winking in and out as the

392
00:16:07,749 --> 00:16:05,279
border of the thing moved

393
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:07,759
i thought it was a cloud its wide

394
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,720
curving edge was very sheer but surely

395
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:13,199
that could be accounted for by some wind

396
00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:14,560
phenomenon

397
00:16:19,829 --> 00:16:17,360
the cloud moved as i moved so exactly in

398
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:19,839
synchronization with me that it seemed

399
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:22,560
oddly connected to me it was as if this

400
00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:25,279
entire huge object were linked to my

401
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:26,800
motions

402
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:28,560
of course the moon will do that behind

403
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:29,920
the trees

404
00:16:33,749 --> 00:16:32,000
but i was seeing the object not against

405
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:33,759
nearer trees but against the more

406
00:16:37,829 --> 00:16:35,360
distant stars

407
00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:37,839
thus the movement either was actual or

408
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:42,000
was violating a law of perspective

409
00:16:46,389 --> 00:16:44,240
i didn't much care which it was i was

410
00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:46,399
going to turn and walk away from it then

411
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:48,720
into the woods toward the tent

412
00:16:53,430 --> 00:16:50,880
suddenly i heard a voice clear in the

413
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:53,440
silence can you go back upstairs by

414
00:16:58,629 --> 00:16:56,480
yourself or do you want us to help you

415
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:58,639
it wasn't overly loud but it shattered

416
00:17:02,230 --> 00:16:59,759
the quiet

417
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:02,240
i stopped frightened not sure where it

418
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:03,600
had come from

419
00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:06,000
on the far side of the road i saw three

420
00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:08,720
black shapes hanging above the brush

421
00:17:13,270 --> 00:17:10,880
they were blocky and small

422
00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:13,280
as if covered by black or dark blue

423
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:14,400
sheets

424
00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:16,880
that voice had been so final so

425
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:18,880
absolutely authoritative and so

426
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:20,480
implacable

427
00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:23,039
suddenly i realized what was happening

428
00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:26,000
that was a gigantic unknown object up

429
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:29,280
there and my son must be in it i had

430
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:31,760
interrupted the visitors in the middle

431
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:34,960
of one of their abductions

432
00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:38,240
unquote now clearly we can all relate to

433
00:17:42,070 --> 00:17:40,480
how this must have felt you would feel

434
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:42,080
so powerless

435
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:45,280
as a parent to know that your child

436
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:47,120
may well be in the middle of an

437
00:17:52,070 --> 00:17:49,679
abduction experience it's one thing to

438
00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:52,080
wake up the next day and have suspicion

439
00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:53,840
because of some things that don't line

440
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:55,039
up quite right

441
00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:56,960
but here strieber wakes up in the middle

442
00:18:03,029 --> 00:17:59,760
of the night finds his child gone

443
00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:03,039
goes outside sees objects ufos

444
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:05,120
apparently in the sky silhouetted

445
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:07,679
against the blanket of stars

446
00:18:13,830 --> 00:18:11,120
and realizes his son is likely in one of

447
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:13,840
those craft right now just like he had

448
00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:16,240
been many many times

449
00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:18,400
and on top of that you have a voice

450
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:21,440
telepathically that speaks to him

451
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:24,000
really an astounding experience

452
00:18:27,669 --> 00:18:26,400
what's even more interesting is what he

453
00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:27,679
then does

454
00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:29,600
and it's a combination of feeling

455
00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:31,360
powerless that clearly they are the ones

456
00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:32,480
in control

457
00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:34,960
but also we see hints here that they can

458
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:37,600
control his behavior which we've talked

459
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:43,830
quoting from later in that same section

460
00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:44,799
quote

461
00:18:49,510 --> 00:18:46,480
remembering what they had wanted me to

462
00:18:51,909 --> 00:18:49,520
do i marched upstairs like a soldier

463
00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:51,919
i was perishing inside i went over to

464
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:54,720
the bed and sat down on it i sensed that

465
00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:56,480
they were in the bedroom with me but

466
00:19:00,630 --> 00:18:58,720
that didn't seem to matter i might as

467
00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:00,640
well have been paralyzed for all the

468
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:02,960
control i had over myself

469
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:05,440
this was a subtle thing though on the

470
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:08,320
surface i felt normal it was just that i

471
00:19:13,270 --> 00:19:11,280
was walking across a room going to bed

472
00:19:15,990 --> 00:19:13,280
when alarms were screaming in my mind

473
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:16,000
that something had happened to my child

474
00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:17,679
it was as if somebody else were

475
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:19,440
controlling my body

476
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:21,600
and yet i did not feel as though i was

477
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:24,000
struggling i threw off my robe and

478
00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:26,160
slippers laid down in bed and felt the

479
00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:28,240
most wonderful sensation of warmth

480
00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:30,000
spread over my body

481
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:32,240
helplessly i was swept off into a

482
00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:39,590
now you can imagine striper's relief

483
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:42,480
when the next morning he finds his son

484
00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:43,840
back in bed

485
00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:46,400
and he seems no worse for the wear when

486
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:48,400
he wakes up he's full of energy he's

487
00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:51,280
very chipper his usual self so this was

488
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:54,480
of course very relieving to strieber

489
00:19:58,549 --> 00:19:56,400
they have an interesting

490
00:19:59,750 --> 00:19:58,559
conversation though later on he and his

491
00:20:01,909 --> 00:19:59,760
son

492
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:01,919
and stripper talks about that and again

493
00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:04,480
here we see how people wrestle with the

494
00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:07,360
nature of these experiences in what

495
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:09,760
state of mind do they actually happen to

496
00:20:16,149 --> 00:20:13,520
what degree are they actually real

497
00:20:18,870 --> 00:20:16,159
quoting from the book quote we were out

498
00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:18,880
on the deck together just after sunset

499
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:21,039
andrew looked toward the woods

500
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:23,200
you know i had a funny dream last night

501
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:25,120
i dreamed i was floating in the woods

502
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:27,840
and this huge eye was looking down at me

503
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:30,159
it was funny it was like it was real but

504
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:31,760
it was a dream

505
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:33,600
he looked at the shadows some of them

506
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:36,640
already deep wasn't it a dream dad

507
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:38,880
what do you want to think

508
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:40,960
i want to think a dream

509
00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:43,120
that sounds good to me then

510
00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:45,520
like so many of us he had chosen to

511
00:20:51,029 --> 00:20:47,600
protect himself from the reality of the

512
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:51,039
visitors by calling them a dream

513
00:20:58,789 --> 00:20:56,710
and by the way that's a further

514
00:21:01,110 --> 00:20:58,799
distinction that we should make here

515
00:21:03,510 --> 00:21:01,120
in addition to it being difficult to

516
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:03,520
determine the nature of the reality of

517
00:21:07,510 --> 00:21:05,039
these experiences

518
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:07,520
of course people don't want to eagerly

519
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:10,480
assume that these are real because it

520
00:21:15,909 --> 00:21:13,440
throws off your entire understanding of

521
00:21:17,830 --> 00:21:15,919
reality of what's supposed to happen in

522
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:17,840
our normal waking state

523
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:20,240
so some people many people in fact

524
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:22,480
assume it's a dream for a long period of

525
00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:23,760
time indeed

526
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:27,120
it's usually only when certain

527
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:29,760
factors show up that you really cannot

528
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:32,320
dismiss that demonstrate that something

529
00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:35,120
is happening in manifest reality

530
00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:37,919
it's only then when no other option

531
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:40,240
seems to be on the table anymore that

532
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:43,280
experiencers often face the fact

533
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:45,760
finally that these things are really

534
00:21:55,990 --> 00:21:53,669
that said as i pointed out before

535
00:21:58,710 --> 00:21:56,000
we should not dismiss encounters that

536
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:58,720
seem to happen in a kind of dream state

537
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:01,200
or in an altered state of consciousness

538
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:03,120
in fact there's plenty of evidence as

539
00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:04,799
i've discussed before

540
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:07,760
that the others many of them anyway

541
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:10,640
may most often dwell in these other

542
00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:12,159
realms these other states of

543
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:14,320
consciousness it may be in some

544
00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:16,880
in-between kind of state or place or

545
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:20,240
realm that we encounter them so again we

546
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:22,320
need to learn to not dismiss these

547
00:22:29,669 --> 00:22:24,720
accounts even if they do seem to happen

548
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:32,710
now as i said earlier what's so

549
00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:35,840
interesting and fascinating and telling

550
00:22:39,270 --> 00:22:37,280
about

551
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:39,280
streeper's account in this book and

552
00:22:45,029 --> 00:22:41,919
others is that this is actually quite

553
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:45,039
typical for contactees abductees

554
00:22:48,230 --> 00:22:46,320
experiencers

555
00:22:49,510 --> 00:22:48,240
they have to wrestle with these matters

556
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:49,520
all of them

557
00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:52,080
and of course how other people respond

558
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:54,720
is a big part of the challenge people

559
00:22:59,750 --> 00:22:56,640
don't want their

560
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:59,760
safe familiar understanding of reality

561
00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:01,200
questioned

562
00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:03,440
and stripper talks about running into

563
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:05,440
this quite often

564
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:07,520
quoting from a later section of the book

565
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:08,640
quote

566
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:11,280
author mark cramer who is a very careful

567
00:23:16,149 --> 00:23:13,360
and rigorous intellectual and a true

568
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:16,159
gentleman listened with interest

569
00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:18,080
when he began to perceive that what i

570
00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:20,720
was telling him suggested that revision

571
00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:22,799
of our fundamental understanding of the

572
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:25,280
world would be in order were the

573
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:28,000
visitors found to be external to us he

574
00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:30,080
began to feel strongly that my

575
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:33,440
perceptions had to be seated in my mind

576
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:36,000
he remained concerned and friendly

577
00:23:39,350 --> 00:23:37,280
although there were people at the

578
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:39,360
conference who were more comfortable

579
00:23:45,269 --> 00:23:42,480
with the problems my story presented

580
00:23:49,669 --> 00:23:47,029
so this is an important point that we

581
00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:49,679
really should be cognizant of

582
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:52,320
it's not just that non-experiencers

583
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:54,320
sometimes assume that these kinds of

584
00:23:59,190 --> 00:23:56,720
things can't happen to people

585
00:24:01,830 --> 00:23:59,200
but the truth is they don't want them to

586
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:01,840
be possible and they will dismiss them

587
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:04,960
because if they don't it begins to tear

588
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:08,000
apart the fabric of our understanding of

589
00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:10,720
the real world of what we can trust as

590
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:13,840
being the nature of reality itself

591
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:16,080
that's where you end up inevitably when

592
00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:23,909
now again as i said in the introduction

593
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:27,200
i first read these three books communion

594
00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:29,840
transformation and breakthrough back in

595
00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:32,720
the late 90s and of course it was all

596
00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:34,320
new to me then

597
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:36,880
of course now with the

598
00:24:42,789 --> 00:24:39,840
hindsight i have i can see that really

599
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:42,799
what street is describing is very common

600
00:24:48,549 --> 00:24:44,880
very typical for people who have

601
00:24:50,390 --> 00:24:48,559
experiences with the ufo phenomenon

602
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:50,400
interestingly what people often

603
00:24:55,269 --> 00:24:52,559
experience is that while they have

604
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:55,279
profound experiences ultimately they're

605
00:25:00,070 --> 00:24:57,600
also terrifying this is part of the

606
00:25:01,750 --> 00:25:00,080
strangeness the paradox of these kinds

607
00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:01,760
of encounters

608
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:04,080
you want them when they're gone but when

609
00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:06,240
they show up it's terrifying

610
00:25:10,549 --> 00:25:08,720
ontologically shocking this is something

611
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:10,559
that almost every experiencer is

612
00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:12,080
familiar with

613
00:25:16,870 --> 00:25:14,480
and strieber talks about this

614
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:16,880
quoting from the book again quote

615
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:19,279
my responses to the visitors were always

616
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:21,760
visceral i would wake up and glare into

617
00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:24,799
the night like an uneasy animal i would

618
00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:28,000
vacillate between dread and longing

619
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:30,640
usually longing for them during the day

620
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:33,039
and dreading them at night

621
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,630
now something else that we've touched on

622
00:25:41,830 --> 00:25:40,320
with the point of convergence podcast

623
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:41,840
many times

624
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:45,440
is the strange fact that people who have

625
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:47,840
these experiences with the others in

626
00:25:52,390 --> 00:25:50,159
that realm that seems to somehow be

627
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:52,400
different than normal reality almost

628
00:25:57,269 --> 00:25:54,880
like a matrix like reality

629
00:26:00,070 --> 00:25:57,279
they find these experiences somehow feel

630
00:26:01,510 --> 00:26:00,080
more real than here

631
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:01,520
that when they wake up into their

632
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,679
everyday waking experience that the rest

633
00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:05,679
of us are in all the time

634
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:07,919
this somehow feels less real less

635
00:26:11,909 --> 00:26:10,320
substantial than what they just had

636
00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:11,919
experienced that often is the case

637
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:13,120
anyway

638
00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:15,360
and stripper talks about this

639
00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:16,240
quote

640
00:26:21,669 --> 00:26:18,400
i was aware that what i was observing

641
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:21,679
had a very unusual texture it was not as

642
00:26:28,549 --> 00:26:25,360
steady as life but seemed more real

643
00:26:30,549 --> 00:26:28,559
colors sounds all were heightened it is

644
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:30,559
hard to describe the effect

645
00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:32,720
except to say that by comparison my

646
00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:34,880
ordinary waking perception

647
00:26:42,149 --> 00:26:39,279
seemed like clouded water unquote

648
00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:42,159
now if you've read stripers books you'll

649
00:26:48,870 --> 00:26:45,600
also find a very strange phenomena shows

650
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:48,880
up along with the others often anyway

651
00:26:54,070 --> 00:26:52,080
and that is the dead deceased people

652
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:54,080
human beings

653
00:26:57,990 --> 00:26:55,679
we've talked about that on previous

654
00:26:59,830 --> 00:26:58,000
podcasts in fact we did one entire

655
00:27:03,110 --> 00:26:59,840
episode dedicated to that topic

656
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:03,120
specifically the others and the dead

657
00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:04,080
now

658
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:06,080
what we also have found that the

659
00:27:11,029 --> 00:27:08,480
evidence points to the data points to is

660
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:11,039
that there seems to be some connection

661
00:27:15,669 --> 00:27:13,120
some common ground between

662
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:15,679
experiences with the others and also

663
00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:17,600
things like near-death experiences

664
00:27:20,389 --> 00:27:19,520
out-of-body experiences that kind of

665
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:20,399
thing

666
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:22,320
we talked about that many times on this

667
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:23,600
podcast

668
00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:26,480
and streeper notes this as well

669
00:27:31,909 --> 00:27:28,960
and often in near-death experiences

670
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:31,919
people often also describe it feeling

671
00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:35,039
more real than here that while those of

672
00:27:38,230 --> 00:27:36,720
us who have not had those experiences

673
00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:38,240
might think a near-death experience

674
00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:40,640
would feel ethereal and kind of not

675
00:27:44,789 --> 00:27:42,320
fully substantial

676
00:27:46,950 --> 00:27:44,799
that's not what people report at all

677
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:46,960
it's when they come back here that this

678
00:27:51,909 --> 00:27:50,159
feels wispy and insubstantial in

679
00:27:54,389 --> 00:27:51,919
comparison

680
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:54,399
now another tie-in or connection point

681
00:27:57,029 --> 00:27:55,360
between

682
00:27:59,350 --> 00:27:57,039
things like near-death experiences

683
00:28:00,710 --> 00:27:59,360
out-of-body experiences and encounters

684
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:00,720
with the others

685
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,279
is that people often return with an

686
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:05,520
increased capacity along the side

687
00:28:09,029 --> 00:28:06,880
spectrum

688
00:28:11,909 --> 00:28:09,039
and indeed streeper has noticed this as

689
00:28:15,669 --> 00:28:11,919
well and experiences some of this and he

690
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:18,230
quoting from the book again quote

691
00:28:23,430 --> 00:28:21,120
precognition apparent telepathy out of

692
00:28:26,310 --> 00:28:23,440
the body perceptions and even physical

693
00:28:28,789 --> 00:28:26,320
levitation are commonplace side effects

694
00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:28,799
of contact with the visitors

695
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:31,760
i find this absolutely astonishing but i

696
00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:33,440
cannot deny it

697
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:35,440
thousands of letters and personal

698
00:28:39,350 --> 00:28:37,200
interviews with people who have

699
00:28:41,909 --> 00:28:39,360
encountered them with many of them

700
00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:41,919
reporting one or more of these effects

701
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,880
convince me that they are a real outcome

702
00:28:50,789 --> 00:28:46,320
of contact

703
00:28:56,710 --> 00:28:53,990
now as i often say when we talk about

704
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:56,720
material from books on this podcast

705
00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:58,640
i highly recommend you go and read this

706
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:01,279
book in fact read the entire trilogy

707
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:02,960
communion transformation and

708
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:05,600
breakthrough because many

709
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:08,320
accounts are talked about that i can't

710
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:10,720
possibly get to in the

711
00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:13,120
time we have allotted for one or two or

712
00:29:17,029 --> 00:29:15,279
three podcasts there's so much rich

713
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:17,039
material that i really do recommend you

714
00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:18,240
read the books

715
00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:19,600
in many ways i'm just trying to whet

716
00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:22,960
your appetite and also make connections

717
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:25,520
that we see elsewhere as we try and

718
00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:28,159
learn and make progress in understanding

719
00:29:32,710 --> 00:29:30,399
what may be going on here not only in

720
00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:32,720
terms of the ufo phenomenon but in terms

721
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:35,200
of ultimate reality

722
00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:36,559
now

723
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:38,799
interestingly in the book there are

724
00:29:43,669 --> 00:29:41,279
specific situations where strieber has

725
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:43,679
evidence that these others the visitors

726
00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:45,120
as he calls them

727
00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:47,679
seem to be trying to help him

728
00:29:53,350 --> 00:29:50,159
believe it or not they begin to express

729
00:29:56,470 --> 00:29:53,360
concern about his diet specifically his

730
00:29:58,710 --> 00:29:56,480
sugar-rich diet that diabetes and

731
00:30:01,430 --> 00:29:58,720
perhaps early death awaits him if he

732
00:30:03,750 --> 00:30:01,440
doesn't change his behavior

733
00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:03,760
this sounds strange but this is indeed

734
00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:06,559
what he encounters in fact he sometimes

735
00:30:10,149 --> 00:30:08,880
hears voices suddenly speak out loud to

736
00:30:15,669 --> 00:30:10,159
him

737
00:30:18,149 --> 00:30:15,679
eating these sweets as he calls them

738
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:18,159
and over time he begins to realize more

739
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:20,000
and more that while they seem

740
00:30:25,029 --> 00:30:22,080
frightening they are not actually

741
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:25,039
dangerous not literally and in fact

742
00:30:30,389 --> 00:30:27,360
maybe trying to help him even trying to

743
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:30,399
help him transcend his normal experience

744
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:32,720
of being a human being

745
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:35,279
quoting from the book again quote

746
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:37,200
instead of harming me the visitors

747
00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:39,600
seemed to be daring me to transcend my

748
00:30:43,430 --> 00:30:40,880
weaknesses

749
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:43,440
i began to see an elegant and objective

750
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:45,279
ethic behind their frightening

751
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:48,159
manifestations and weird demands

752
00:30:52,870 --> 00:30:50,080
if i could bear their presence in my

753
00:30:55,590 --> 00:30:52,880
life if i could surmount my fears and my

754
00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:55,600
weaknesses i was going to learn some

755
00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:02,789
now as time goes on stripper begins to

756
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:06,240
see more and more purpose behind the

757
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:07,679
activities

758
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:10,000
of the others he begins to see a

759
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:12,640
benevolent purpose behind it all even

760
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:13,840
though it is

761
00:31:18,789 --> 00:31:16,080
life shattering in many ways certainly

762
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:18,799
paradigm shattering quoting from later

763
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:20,880
in the book again quote

764
00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:22,640
as our relationship developed the

765
00:31:28,470 --> 00:31:25,600
visitors began to tune it very carefully

766
00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:28,480
leading me step by step through my fears

767
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:29,919
they always seemed ready with the

768
00:31:34,549 --> 00:31:32,480
hardest challenge i could manage

769
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:34,559
they never sought to destroy me with an

770
00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:36,720
assault beyond my strength

771
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:39,519
thus they can hardly be called evil

772
00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:41,440
based on the actual outcome of what they

773
00:31:45,830 --> 00:31:43,600
did to me they must be counted the

774
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:45,840
allies of our growth

775
00:31:50,389 --> 00:31:47,840
i have emerged from my experience a

776
00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:50,399
thousand times stronger than i had ever

777
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:52,080
been before it

778
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:55,279
i am not at all afraid not even of death

779
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:57,120
rather it has become another rich

780
00:32:01,830 --> 00:32:00,000
potential in my life a challenge to be

781
00:32:03,509 --> 00:32:01,840
met with a peaceful heart and an

782
00:32:05,990 --> 00:32:03,519
interested mind

783
00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:06,000
i have been in my soul separate from my

784
00:32:11,190 --> 00:32:08,720
body my own experience thus tells me

785
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:11,200
that the soul has a separate life

786
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:13,279
and the work of people like dr ian

787
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:15,279
stevenson suggest that it persists

788
00:32:21,669 --> 00:32:17,760
beyond death and that reincarnation is

789
00:32:25,269 --> 00:32:21,679
apparently a very real possibility

790
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:25,279
the visitors have said we recycle souls

791
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:28,960
and of the earth that this is a school

792
00:32:33,269 --> 00:32:31,279
it may be exactly that

793
00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:33,279
a place where souls are growing and

794
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,080
evolving towards some form that we can

795
00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:38,720
scarcely begin to imagine

796
00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:41,279
i can conceive that the fate of souls

797
00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:43,200
may be one of the great universal

798
00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:44,320
questions

799
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:46,480
it may be that we have emerged as a

800
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:50,080
means of at once creating and answering

801
00:32:54,389 --> 00:32:51,440
this question

802
00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:56,870
now on other podcast episodes i've

803
00:33:02,710 --> 00:32:59,760
quoted strieber when he talks about the

804
00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:02,720
transformational potential behind these

805
00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:05,200
experiences with the others

806
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:07,200
and from his point of view the

807
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:08,720
discombobulation

808
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:11,200
the paradigm shattering nature of these

809
00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:12,480
experiences

810
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:14,240
may be perhaps

811
00:33:21,029 --> 00:33:15,600
necessary

812
00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:21,039
overcome and transcend our current

813
00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:22,480
perspective

814
00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:24,880
and street goes on to talk about how

815
00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:27,279
overcoming fear and not being afraid of

816
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:28,240
fear

817
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:30,799
is part of the process may indeed be

818
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:31,919
anyway

819
00:33:34,549 --> 00:33:33,600
quoting from the book again

820
00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:34,559
quote

821
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:36,640
throughout our history we have rejected

822
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:39,200
the negative and sought the positive

823
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:41,440
there is another way i feel that

824
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:44,240
involves balancing between the two it is

825
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:46,480
up to us to forge in the deepest heart

826
00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:50,159
of mankind the place of reconciliation

827
00:33:55,190 --> 00:33:52,559
we must learn to walk the razor's edge

828
00:33:58,789 --> 00:33:55,200
between fear and ecstasy

829
00:34:01,430 --> 00:33:58,799
in other words to begin finally to seek

830
00:34:03,029 --> 00:34:01,440
the full flowering and potential

831
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:03,039
of our humanity

832
00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:06,000
unquote

833
00:34:10,230 --> 00:34:08,480
and on that note we've come to the close

834
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:10,240
of another edition of the point of

835
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:12,079
convergence podcast

836
00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:14,639
as always let's keep this conversation

837
00:34:19,109 --> 00:34:16,879
going and growing

838
00:34:20,869 --> 00:34:19,119
but until next time friends from deep

839
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:20,879
within the blue ridge mountains of north